Interview with Fritz R. Gordner

Pamela Pierce (PJP): So the first question, and I said that this was going to be an easy question, is how did you start collecting, and when did you start collecting? So how and when did the collection start?

Fritz R. Gordner (FRG): As I sit in this room with 60 years of memories scattered all around, I realize that it started off back in the early 50s, when a neighbor friend of mine and I went down to a couple of campaign headquarters and got the free pass out buttons for Ike and Stevenson. We came home and lined them up on the rug in our homes; it was just kind of a young kids’ moment, but it obviously has turned into study, collecting, friendships and travel. And here we are today, hoping that some of these items will perpetuate the ideals and aspirations of one of the great presidents, our 26^th President Teddy Roosevelt.

PJP: And could you talk a little bit about your Harper’s Weekly image?

FRG: Sure, that was a fine moment. Part of the collection had been on display down at a college – Hanover College in Indiana. It was down there for a study program for a couple months, and I had gone down to review, preview, or to visualize what they had done in their library with the collection. And on the way back, driving up and down kind of a back road in Southern Indiana, I saw a little junk shop…parked the car, and hoping I’d find a door open – and I did. I walked in and there was a stack of paper, which turned out to be Harper’s Weeklys. And up towards the top was one that, lo and behold (and here I came from my display of items at Hanover College) here on top of the stack was a wonderful copy with a sketch of Theodore on horseback in his Rough Rider uniform. So, I tried not to show excitement, but there was another gentleman standing next to me and I was afraid that he was going to maybe buy the whole stack, I wasn’t sure. But he did not, and I quickly bought this one item. Well it came back to my home and got lost in some other papers. A few years later, in an overnight church study program, as I was having trouble sleeping, I went for a walk and saw on the reading table an American Heritage magazine and saw on the cover was something about Theodore Roosevelt. I turned to the article by Doug Brinkley, and one of the images in his article was this Harper’s Weekly cover; and I said to myself, I think I’ve seen that before – it had been several years at this point. I borrowed the magazine, brought it home, and looked through all my papers and found that Harper’s Weekly. So now it is proudly on display on an easel in my room and I love telling that story to folks who get to see my collection. Eventually I ran into Doug Brinkley, and he signed the article. I told him the story – it’s a nice piece and it’s just one of those things, you never know, poke your head into someplace and you come up with a nice item.

PJP: And the Roosevelt and Fairbanks banner also has a story to it, right?

FRG: Yeah, everything in here! I laugh as I say it because sometimes one of our family members kids me – they never hear the same story twice. I always seem to change it a little bit. But the story behind that piece is that we were on a ski trip out west and after dinner as we were walking back to our condo, our friends saw an antique shop across the street. Naturally I walked in and asked if they had any political artifacts, and this old timer said, “Yeah I think I do! Something came in the other day.” And there over in the corner of the little shop was an American flag dumped on the floor. I mean a BIG big stack of flag. We went over, opened it up, and there sewn along the bottom of the flag was a hand-painted piece of canvas, probably a foot and a half high, and maybe ten or twelve feet (the length of the flag) long. And in big capital letters painted in black was ROOSEVELT FAIRBANKS. Somewhat excited, I asked the gentleman, “What’s the story to it?” and he said, “Well the story is, it hung over the streets of Pueblo, Colorado, back in those days.” You can see the rope is still attached to the flag, either hung from a tree to a tree or from a rooftop to a tree, but it’s a beautiful piece and there’s only one of them in America, and it’s right here in this collection.

PJP: You mentioned that collecting has also led to a lot of friendships. Can you talk a little bit about that, and what kind of connections you have formed in the collecting world?

FRG: A lot of the friendships, of course, are other than collectors. But also it allows a chance to share the excitement and the passion of not only collecting, but of also the learning process. Again, with a president like Theodore Roosevelt, it creates and really stirs the blood for patriotism too, as he did then and his name does today. So it gives you a chance to share the good ole Americanism that he talked about. It gives you a chance to share that with students in social settings and I even have a friend who, when we get together in social moments, he’ll say, “Fritz, it’s been three minutes since we’ve been here and you haven’t mentioned Teddy Roosevelt yet”; but it’s tongue-in-cheek that I share that. It also gives armchair adventure, wonderful literature, old and new works that are coming into the reading world, that’s enjoyable. The friendships have allowed travel. Our family has been on the Roosevelt aircraft carrier, we’ve been to all the various Roosevelt presidential sites, and we’ve met Roosevelt family members. Of course the Theodore Roosevelt Association (TRA) and its activities both nationally and locally have provided great experiences. Dr. John Gable encouraged me to start an Indiana chapter of the TRA. We did and now we hold two meetings a year with speakers, most of which is done by members who have interest in a specific area of Roosevelt’s life. The friendships both old and new continue, and it’s just fun to have that common interest.

PJP: Can you talk a little about the connection between Theodore Roosevelt and mountain climbing? Because we talked yesterday about how you have in mountain climbing itself a kind of collect–

FRG: Yes, that’s true! When working in the Grand Teton National Park building horse trails with 10 other young guys during our college summers, I was introduced to mountaineering. My cabin mate and I hit it off well and became mountaineering buddies. So for the next couple of summers, we were in the mountains every weekend. One of our adventures was a drive over to Devil’s Tower National Monument. I’d never heard of it, but Fred had been dreaming of climbing it while studying it in geography classes. So he said to me, “Let’s do it!” We went over and obtained permission to climb it, and unbeknownst to me that was a Theodore Roosevelt thing. It ended up being not only a great climbing memory, but later a realization that it wouldn’t have been protected as it has been without TR’s foresight and commitment to conservation. Preserving these treasures for future generations, as Teddy said, were “for his children, and their children, and their children.” I feel the same way. It’s free from the clutter of motels, restaurants and shops, and is there for the beauty and the preservation of the Native American culture…and for Americans to see and appreciate what Theodore did in the area of conservation and the National Park System.

PJP: And you would say that’s your favorite aspect of Theodore Roosevelt, as a conservationist?

FRG: I would say that probably because of my personal background, conservation is one of the highlights of what he has done for America. But it certainly is just one of them. Another thing that eventually happened in my life that also paralleled with TR’s life was mountaineering. One summer while working in Europe I went down to Switzerland and got to climb in the Bernese Alps with a side jaunt to the Matterhorn. Later I learned that on Theodore’s honeymoon, he took time to ascend the Matterhorn. Well, at least he and I climbed the same route on the Matterhorn. That was fun. Good memory.

PJP: One of the things we’ve been discussing on this trip is an image to represent your collection. When you’re in this room, which I know people can’t see this room, but it’s a wonderful room surrounded by Roosevelt items. How is it that you feel when you show this room to other people? Do you come here to just sit or read, write? What is it that you feel when you’re surrounded by your collection?

FRG: The collection generates good feelings and old memories. Each item in the room has a memory attached to it or a story concerning the find of it, and the eventual study of it. And then I’m able to share with other people when they come here to visit. I do believe that collectors should have the opportunity or take the time to share their passion and their knowledge with others of any age. For example, just recently we had a gathering of eight people in here and it was fun. I was looking at them as I shared my stories. It was almost like owls spinning their heads as they looked from wall to wall and smiled as I talked. That was fascinating. Oftentimes I am asked, “What is your favorite item?” or “What represents this collection best?” as you have asked of me this week. So I looked around the room, and there was one item that is probably the least valuable (I say valuable, there is naturally some value to almost all artifacts) but the least valuable item probably is a sketch done by my late wonderful father when he was a teenager. Yes, back in 1911 he was 14 years old and attending art class in Evansville, Indiana. After his death, my wife and I were going through some of his papers and discovered an 8” x 11” pencil sketch of Theodore Roosevelt. It is now framed and hanging here in this room. I realize now that not only did Theodore have an impact on my father as a young boy, but it also represents an important part of my collection and an important part of the Roosevelt story.

PJP: And your father—did he talk about Theodore Roosevelt?

FRG: Never talked. I never saw those items. But he did inspire me to collect. He was a stamp, book, and sheet music collector. He was a musician and traveled in the Chautauqua as a young man. It was the Chautauqua, by the way, that Roosevelt and other political candidates used to lecture on subjects of their choice, such as conservation and patriotism – not a true political campaign movement. So in this way, Dad played an indirect role in my Roosevelt collection.

PJP: What is–

FRG: Can I mention – excuse me – I did mention the sheet music. Not only does sheet music have fantastic graphics on their covers, but they also represent the subject of the song, march, or hymn depicting the life of Theodore Roosevelt or one of his family members. It helped people of that time to visualize the music since they did not have television, and news was slow in getting around. So the sheet music industry was huge. I think there were upwards of 150 or so sheets written about or published for Theodore and/or his family. And it’s a fun study. I think the Dickinson Roosevelt Project has a few and I’m fortunate to have a few also.

PJP: When I was here in April we talked about the book A Gentle Madness –I can’t remember the full title—but it’s about collecting and about that kind of passion that people have for it and that enthusiasm. And you said that you might still continue to collect postcards? I guess can you talk about the future of the collection or where you might see it going?

FRG: Yes, it’s a great book on the history of bibliophiles and bibliomanes. I’ve mellowed somewhat in my passion to seek and acquire items on TR. But I think in the years to come that my passion will be satisfied through postcards. They were the only means for families to keep in touch with one another, and at the same time, to express the multitude of different attitudes and facets to the complexity of TR. In my postcard collection, there are international cards written in different languages, displaying different artwork, cartoons, photographs of every aspect of his family, and campaign travels telling wonderful stories of his life and of the world that he lived and believed in. It’s another part of the collection telling the Roosevelt story.

PJP: What are some of your favorite books on Roosevelt?

FRG: Oh goodness. I think my first one was Mornings on Horseback. That was way back. And then of course the – I don’t want to get into listing the authors because I may leave one out and I don’t want to embarrass myself or offend any of the wonderful people who have added to the collection of literature on Theodore Roosevelt. He himself set the example of the importance of writing, which was amazing since we know upwards of at least 50 books or publications he wrote in his lifetime. Some of his writings are still being used as textbooks. His War of 1812 for one, is still a textbook in the Naval Academy. It’s fun to find some insignificant books that have been published on Theodore. His brothers and sisters wrote of their life with him and of their own adventures. Two of his sons wrote of their hunting trips into Asia, one of my favorites being Trailing the Giant Panda. Oh golly, golly – of course a favorite of many is the African Game Trails about his year in Africa with his son Kermit. Then River of Doubt was probably the most readable and popular with this generation. So, literature by him and about him is very desired and enjoyable. It is also a great armchair adventure for our older generation.

PJP: Those are pretty much the questions that I have. What else would you like to say about the collection, though, that you haven’t had a chance to say?

FRG: A couple of collecting stories – One being I was contacted years ago by a gentleman here in the state who had been collecting for a long time and he heard I was the budding, up-and-coming TR buff in the Midwest. So he drove up with a carload of items from his collection that he was basically going to bestow upon me – but for a price! We spent Sunday afternoon together, and he being an older and I being a younger guy, it was just a fun moment, I believe, for both of us. He left those items with me and said, “You figure out what you want to pay me for them.” And I said, “Oh my goodness. Okay.” Well at the time, funds were limited for a young person. I lived with the challenge for a week, and then finally called him and said, “Doctor, I’ve decided that I’ll be able to give you such-and-such if you’ll accept it.” And he said, “I’ll be glad to; that’s a good price, under one condition.” And I said, “What do you mean one condition?” And of course in my mind I’m thinking, “Oh sure, he’s gonna add on another several hundred dollars or something like that.” His reply, “Under one condition.” And I said, “What is it?” “Cut the price in half!” So here I was able to acquire all these things for half the price I had offered. It was a memorable collector-to-collector moment and it really allowed me to enhance my collection. Well a few years later I had a chance to do a similar thing for a young person who had in her possession a naval commissioning certificate, a sheepskin given to naval officer William G. Gray, signed by Theodore, as presidents did back in those days. So we talked about finding a new home for it. I knew what it was worth, oh I’ll use a figure, say three to five hundred dollars, and I finally asked, after I realized she wanted me to have it, “What do you need for it?” Her reply, “How about $300?” “All right, under one condition.” She said, “What’s that?” I said, “I’m gonna give you $50 more.” So I was able to do something for her in her young life and give her a little bit more than she thought she was going to get. So I thank the Doctor for trying to shift and teach me to approach things with a different spirit. So those are a couple outstanding memories.

Then, of course, I have a wonderful “Teddy and the Bear” bank. The hunter, or Theodore, is aiming his rifle at a tree stump. You place a penny on the rifle, the penny goes into the tree stump, and a bear pops up once you pull the trigger. It’s a wonderful piece telling the story of the C. Berryman cartoon “Drawing the line in Mississippi” – basically the origin of where the teddy bear legend started.

Oh, and then another story. I have a couple of Fairbanks silver-plated charger plates that are from a set of 14 that were purchased by Vice President Charles W. Fairbanks for his wife at Christmas in 1905 after he and TR were nominated. They’re engraved; and so on occasion when my wife and I entertain, we borrow the rest of the set from the owner and set our table using these wonderful charger plates. Naturally people are somewhat intrigued that they are being served using plates that VP Fairbanks had given his wife.

We could go on and on. There are several items regarding his return as a Rough Rider from Cuba, representing this “crowded hour of his life,” such as front pages of newspapers during his visit to Indianapolis and various announcements of his death.

Since I have lived in Indianapolis all my life, there are a few items in my collection from his visits to Indianapolis. One is a large celluloid button. It has a small oval lithograph of TR placed next to our Soldiers & Sailors Monument located in our downtown. Across the top reads “Memorial Day 1907” Indianapolis; at the bottom “Souvenir” from when TR was here on Memorial Day. He did several things on that day. TR placed a wreath on the grave of Benjamin Harrison who had given him his first political appointment. At another stop, he unveiled a statue of General Lawton, who was Teddy’s favorite general. Unfortunately Lawton was killed in the Philippines during the insurrection. The statue stands in Indianapolis and is quite impressive. And the last event was a luncheon at the Fairbanks home where one of the more exuberant attendees went down to a club in downtown Indianapolis and brought back a container of Manhattan mix of some kind, and out of that there was some talk of Theodore engaging in alcohol and there are a lot of discussions surrounding that. But that was a busy day indeed for Theodore, and Indianapolis is proud of this visit, one of eight total in Indianapolis. Indiana boasts of ten visits to the State. The Bull Moose Party had a strong influence in Indiana. In fact, just over our backyard fence is where then-Senator Beveridge lived. So my wife and I have kinda been in the shadows of that friendship of Beveridge and Teddy.

Golly! What are some other thoughts? Normally no one is allowed to come into the room to straighten or clean on their own, knowing that I take care of it in my own way. My son is very respectful of my interests. He’s got his eyes on a couple of items that he hopes could be his someday. I hope they can be. But he probably knows as much if not more of Roosevelt from his reading on naval history and Theodore – way more than I knew when I was his age. I’m glad that I had this influence on him.

And speaking of youth, once while substituting in a high school advanced history class, I took some of my TR items to the classroom. One of the kids in the class was a strong, good-looking, athletic type of guy. Obviously he was the fullback of the football team or some position like that. He was slouching in his chair and so I went up to him and said, “You know you wouldn’t have a chance to be playing football like you are now without President Theodore Roosevelt having taken a stance on football and cleaning up the rules of the game way back in his day.” All of a sudden I had the attention of the young man and the whole class. Not only did they laugh a little, but they also realized what they were studying and how Theodore Roosevelt had an impact on all of our lives, be it sport, nature, conservation, ornithology, or spiritual thoughts. So his legacy has played a part in all of our lives.

As my family, friends, and visitors have enjoyed my collection and stories of TR over the years, it is my hope that through this collection, that same enjoyment and learning can be found by others for years to come.